The Great Polygamy Debate
A couple of you wanted me to get a discussion started on this and I wanted to discuss this and so here we are. I want to get some great back and forth and so I will take the unpopular position and try to make the case for polygamy. I know there are many of you who read this site and have never left a comment. Make this the post where you leave your first comment and let me know your thoughts on the polygamy debate.
(NB: Keep the debate, positive and constructive. Remember it’s better to say nothing than say something that tears other folks down
ii) In case I can’t create an excuse to do so, make sure you read Kelly’s post on African marriages. It’s so true, so sad and sets the context for this post a little bit.)
Point Number One: A Rebuttal
I know one of the main arguments that will be brought up against polygamy is:
It’s a selfish, barbaric practice that only exists to satisfy the man. Whereas women who exist under polygamy have to endure jealousy and constantly fighting for the man’s attention and resources, the man can happily live with the daily ego boost of going in and out of his wives’ homes as he pleases. Under monogamy, the woman doesn’t have to fight for attention and has the full attention of the man in a mutually loving and nurturing relationship.
Let’s Separate the Ideal from the Reality
Ideally, under monogamy, we have a mutually loving relationship, based on friendship and trust that is mutually nurturing and satisfying to both parties. The reality on the ground is much different.
The Male Seed Wholesaler
First of all, from a very young age, there will be a 20% of men who sleep with 80% of the women. This is not an exact science but I think once I made this point, a lot of you can see that it’s true. Whether it’s the local or international celebrity or the most charming and eligible bachelors in the city, or the rich businessman, there will be that collection of men who will bed more women over the course of their life, than the other 80% combined.
These men tend to have the wonderful gift of being able to take women to emotional and orgasmic highs that the other men can’t seem to do. As a result, women are willing to jeopardize a lot in pursuit of this ultimately unattainable man.
This monogamy arrangement actually works out very favorably for these men because they can bed single women, engaged women and married women (don’t even act like this doesn’t happen very often) all over the place and thanks to contraception NEVER HAVE TO SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY because the society is arranged in such a way that every adult male and female are responsible for their actions with no safety nets to protect the women.
What Polygamy Offers
What polygamy basically offers these women is accountability and security. More often than not, the “20% men” tend to be the most economically successful and most able to shoulder the responsibility of taking care of large numbers of people. The man can’t just hop from wife to wife to wife without ever having to shoulder the responsibilities for her upkeep. I am not just talking about a few thousand dollars in child support in case the man slips up one night. The man, with the support of the rest of his family can go out there, find a woman,bring her into his fold and take care of her and her children for the rest of their lives.
This will bring down the currently skyrocketing single parent household rate.
Point Number 2: The Male Nature
Finally, as I have said previously, polygamy appears to be the best way for a man to somewhat stay true to his nature in a manner that upholds his dignity, the dignity of the community and the dignity of his wife (ves) and children. Men, have been accused left, right and center of constantly being aroused by the latest, cute thing in a skirt even when they have a perfectly loving and nurturing relationship.
As one looks around the world, one can’t help but think that perhaps the man’s proclivity to always pursue the next beautiful woman isn’t just an anomaly but rather the way that he is naturally designed. So, why not stay true to this nature in a manner that is sanctioned by all the major religions of the world?
The Discussion is Way More Important than the Article in this Case
I think I will stop it there and see what discussion develops. The discussion is polygamy: give your two cents about it. Remember, keep it positive! We want some useful information to come out of this debate. Make sure you click in the small white box at the bottom of the comment box when you leave a comment so you can receive emails whenever new comments are left and stay a part of this debate.
Be blesd and bles othaz,
Mwangi
Tags: African marriage, African polygamy, Monogamy, Polygamy
@jim: Hey Jimmy how was the weekend? Now to the debate……….
By polygamy I am referring to one man with multiple women. If we are talking about reality, the number of polygamist cultures has always outnumbered monogamous ones and still does so today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Polygamy_worldwide (check out their source for the data)
First of all, as I have said in the past, I think marrying for love is a very foolish thing to do because what happens when the love dies…..you’ll leave, blaming the other person for “emotionally draining you” when it was you who went in like a consumer to suck all the love out of them. Just like in family, I think unless you can make a commitment that isn’t based on temporary, fleeting emotions, you will leave. But I digress………….
I don’t know why people talk about sharing of love being impossible….are you trying to tell me its impossible for one person to love more than one person, isn’t love the only emotion that grows every time its expressed?
Totally agree Mwangi.
@Leeban: Didn’t expect that…..Thanks 😀
this is an interesting discussion, though a bit one sided. seems to me that instead of the title being ‘why everybody should be a polygamist” it should be ” we should practice polygamy because men are going to cheat anyway and women should settle now otherwise their chance will pass them by and they will be disappointed.”
don’t get me wrong, i am not against polygamy. whatever rocks an individuals boat then far be it from me to tell them how to live their lives. as long as no one is strong armed into it or bullied to stay in the situation then more power to them. lakini truth be told, the way our grand parents and great grand parents experienced polygamy is not the same way that we in the new milenium do.
just like dowry and other rites like birth and death rituals have been sullied as time goes by so has polygamy. a man is less likely to discuss wanting a second wife with his first wife and his family (as was the norm back in the day) and chances are he will just go ahead and run around and hope to keep things on the downlow until he dies or is found out and then he says “i couldn’t help it, you see? its the libido darling, deal with it.”
i am hesitant to paint all men with one brush, that they just can’t control themselves and thus should be allowed to sow their seeds hugh heffner style till they keel over and die. some just can’t deal with the emotional and financial hassle and do try to honour their vows. others take the easy way out and cheat on their wives, thats a given. but men (and women, for that matter) are not a monolith that act and react in the same way to any given situation.
when you talk about all the men who cheat on their wives, it makes me wonder if we should talk about why they act the way they do and whether marriage as it is stifles them. maybe they shouldn’t get married at all. or they could opt for open marriages maybe, i dunno. seems a much more plausible discussion to have than to dust off polygamy and tell women its their safety net with that ominous “or else” left dangling in the air.
as i said before, polygamy back in the day is not polygamy as it is now. then a whole lot of thought and discussion went into it, it wasnt just a matter of a man who liked to sleep around. now, its more of a dude telling (if she is lucky) mama watoto that there is another wife, take it or leave it or not even bothering to inform her he had another family or ndogo ndogo, she would find out when he died.
in this day and age, there is alot of jealousy between “wives”. there is resentment because resources are going to another woman and family that you barely know. and yes, it does smack of the man wanting to have to eat their cake and eat it too and being able to put it down to his wandering eye. it does frighten many women because let us not forget, AIDS is real. lets separate the ideal (for men) from reality.
for every woman i meet who wouldnt mind being the nth wife, there are many others who just will not share. maybe guys who are after a real relationship that entails polygamy should look for the former. guys who are looking for a quick lay should just grow up.
lol, pole for the looong post, but what can i say? its my insomnia 🙂
@spicebear:
Nah, mini posts are more than welcome, they keep the debate healthy. The type of polygamy that I was describing in the post above was old school polygamy which was thought through and discussed.
You are right that at the core of my whole polygamy debate is something that’s very unfair and honestly doesn’t really make much sense if we are indeed beautifully and wonderfully made , I honestly think that most men not only can’t control themselves but don’t know how.
But this polygamy debate does bring to light something that is also pretty rotten about monogamous Western cultures and I guess people in general, which I mentioned when talking to Jimmy: people approach marriage from a very selfish-what-will-it-bring-to-me mentality.
This, as has been often repeated means that the man will creep out whenever he wants to whether polygamous or monogamous.
The woman also views the man as “her property” which she doesn’t want to share with anyone…..and who is meant to give her all his attention as opposed to approaching it from a selfless, what can I give to him/her mentality.
Darn it, couldn’t write anything longer than you spicebear, I was hoping to eclipse your mini-post.
uhm, am i missing something here? just as the woman will not share, most men i know would froth at the mouth at the very thought of a woman stepping out on him. they would absolutely not stand for it and promptly wash their hands off her and it would be drama galore.
and both sexes are selfish. isn’t it selfish of a man to want a woman (or women) to keep his house, raise his chidren, remain faithful to him, be there through the good and bad times, satisfy his sexual urges and ontop of that tolerate another woman who is usurping time, money and affection from her man? marriage is a give and take situation. human beings are not mother theresa’s in the making. being a doormat and pining away while you give your all in a relationship and getting nothing back is a notion that belongs in a soap opera story line and not in real life in my honest opinion.
and i need to call bullshit on men not being able to control themselves. as i see it, if they truly did want variety all the time then they should not get married. it is extremely selfish to tie a woman down and then continue a bachelor lifestyle at her expense and then blame your private parts. men can control themselves cos they have standards. there are certain women a man would not feel inclined to get physical with because she is not their type or whatever. i am yet to meet a man (lets disregard the rapists here) who said he performed coitus with every human female with a vagina with no regard for age, what turns him on, body type, whether she is willing or not, without a condom, whether she is a stinky crack addict sleeping on the sidewalk … see where im going with this? the issue of no control is only brought up when the conditions are ripe and to his advantage. until i meet such a man with no standards and a proclivity for STD’s, i call shenanigans.
also, its a little wierd for a dude to commit to a long term relationship (we are talking children, planning for retirement, till one or the other keels over and dies kind of thing) just for the sex. a bit much, isn’t it? what happens when he can’t get it up anymore? after all, a dude’s sexual peak is in his 20’s. when he fikas middle age will he let them go out and get some of that good loving that he cant give anymore or will he stock up on the viagra and pray for strength?
whatever is wrong with marriage polygamy is not the answer, at least not in this day and age. the “ideal polygamist” (lol) and what he would do in having multiple wives and families to support is a far cry from the dude who just wants to hump with no repercussions.
and dude, i am known for being long winded and unable to summarise at the best of times. good luck trying to beat my record!
Woman’s point of view: The way I see it, if my man will cheat on me anyways (this is a 99% thing). Now, from experience, chances are, even if he cheats on me, I won’t leave him based on this alone, especially if he’s a good husband in all other respects (see my post on that).
In that case, isn’t it a lesser evil for the other woman to do her share in the arrangement?
I don’t want her having all the good parts while I do the dirty work, take care of the man, his kids, his dirty socks etc, while she gets to ‘enjoy’ the guy with no responsibilities.
Of course the arrangement has to be clearly discussed, like what competencies, especially financial, does she bring into the mix, and other such issues, but I think it would work.
I don’t have to love the other woman, I just need to tolerate her, as long as she also has the right attitude…
To me it’s a matter of considering which is the lesser evil, and how much I love the man.
By the way, it’s possible for a man to love even 5 women truly and completely…I don’t understand it, but i’ve seen it work.
Now, the likelihood of me accepting this arrangement, or even getting married is quite slim, but if it’s either another woman, or my family breaks down, polygamy all the way…
Now, lets hear the low self esteem etc comments 🙂
Sorry I mixed myself up at the beginning. I meant, chances are, if I get married, there is a 99% chance that the dude will cheat, and experience has shown even if he does I won’t leave him…
If a man is going to cheat he is going to cheat whether or not he has a hundred wives or one. Having multiple wives will not cure a cheater.
You kind of lost me on the first part of the article, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that men who are Polygamist are somehow more responsible because they are Polygamist as opposed to the guy who goes out and beds every woman he can? Are you saying this is a way for these type of men to be considered legitimate or moral for lack of a better term?
Mr.Mwangi, I agree with you,there is nothing wrong with polygamy. Truly speaking, it is hard for men to stay, satisfied , with one wife,either he goes public and lead a polygamy life or got caught red handed like the likes of Bill Clinton and company.Someone said”It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern ‘civilized’ world.” see the link for further reading
Modern Religion Article
@Caustic, I hear you on the serial cheater thing, but I think Mwangi was writing in response to the phenomenon that has become so prevalent, especially in Kenya. A man dies, and around three other women come up with the guy’s children and all, claiming to be his wives ( I hope that’s what you meant Mwangi).
Nice men will cheat with one two other women, they’re not serial..
To me, instead of having these other families turn up after a man is dead, it’s better to know about it before hand. Actually, it kinda lets off the pressure on me to bear more than one child…lol
Ok, I’m never getting married!
You guys can go round in circles. I will just speak for myself. i agree with both sides of every argument you guys can come up with…but i think when it comes to polygamy its easier said than done. I think this is one of those decisions you can only make by yourself… I dont think its fair to have a collective opinion on this because every person deals with this differently. Some women think they will be ok but they eventually end up getting destroyed by jealousy and some think that they would never be able to live through it and they get through it just fine. Some men think its ‘cool’ until thy cant handle their wives and they lose everything and some handle it just fine balancing their wives perfectly with no favorism. Its all up to the individuals involved. My two cents! now im off to sleep.
Oh, grasshopper, no one can beat me in long meandering mini-posts. No one!
In my opinion, I think unconditional giving and continual willing to compromise is a must in relationships. Sure everyone will have their cannot be negotiated areas, but I think unless you are entering a union for life to give without always expecting something in return, you will be severley disappointed at some point…..can you imagine if everyone in Africa took this view to family? How many would have fallen apart by now?
No doubt polygamy is very much in favour of the man, but as it stands, outside of the West so is monogamy because dudes still step out on their wives, at least here there is some form of OPEN obligation to her and her kids.
I am not saying a man wants to hump everything. Make no mistake about it, he can’t hump anything, but a man is easily turned on and most men once turned on must find a release……hence a porn industry that is bigger than the music, video game and movie industries combined (go to Alexa.com, which ranks the top websites on Earth and you might be shocked by just how much porn is on there in all the different countries). In short, a man must find a way to deal with the fact that he will lust after women daily. That’s just the way it is. Sure there are cultural elements involved but unless men are taught from young how to sublimate etc etc they must find an expression for this sexuality. A lot of women must engage in the act first before they like it and get hooked, dudes wake up one morning with a hard on and that’s it….they’re hooked for life. Makes the cocaine industry look like kindergarten.
Part of this whole visual thing as far as I can tell is that we fall in lust and love at the same time very often. Hence the obsessions we develop with girls we see but hardly know. So though indeed a lot of the time its just lust, a lot of dudes kinda fall in love the very first time they see a woman.
But we are Westerners&Westernized and we enter into relationships looking for someone to satify our needs as opposed to continuing on a legacy or take care of someone or anything like that so no doubt a lot about what I am suggesting is ridiculous when measured against the way we were raised.
I understand if this is incoherent to most, very stream of consciousness that was.
@Kelly: Good way of summarizing it. Indeed, I think the chances of my getting a wife with, yeah girl you and me will have many wives and kids together in cosmopolitan Africa are rather slim.
i think caustic blonde’s comment has gotten to the gist of what i was trying to say in a (very) round about way. is the cure for infidelity a polygamous arrangement? because what i understood from what you posted is that men who cheat would be served much better if they had multiple wives and that this is somehow a “good” thing for women specifically and for society as a whole. in my view, that defeats the whole purpose of polygamy. basically you are trying to make a case for the booty call within a long term relationship or am i getting it wrong?
@Caustic: I am saying that under polygamy this man is openly accountable and responsible for his actions in that he has to consider the effects that every women he gets involved with will have on his family and also has to take care of her and her family should they enter into a relationship. Of course the polygamy I am discussing is polygamy being practiced by some men with integrity….men who want to stay true to their families but still have a constantly wandering eye and don’t want it to destroy their family.
Hmmm, is that true? If a man has a legitimate way to bring extra women into the fold that he will continue to lie to his wife and family? I don’t think most people would do that. Why would you do that when you can do it in the open?
@Kelly: Yeah, that was one of the points that I was getting across…..that there is honesty instead of the millions of secret affairs that currently take place.
@meek meek: Indeed, I really want to go round meeting folks who are living or have lived polygamy just to get a taste for it and see if it can really work.
To all folks who have shared stories with me thus far thanks
@spicebear: What I am proposing is that perhaps the rate of infidelity is high because its trying to box a man into a way of life that goes against his nature. So I’m not saying that polygamy is the cure for infidelity….I am saying that infidelity is as a result of a deeper issue and that perhaps that issue is that a man by nature wants to be and easily can be with more than one woman.
In addition to that, the way things are happening right now, there is way too little accountability and something that at least old school relationships had, though my lord the sexism and abuse were high, was accountability and respect for the strength and continuity of the family and community.
@midnitePreacher : Welcome to the tDA comments thread. Thanks for a fantastic contribution and most of all you have provoked me with one question:
It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction?
BY THE WAY, SOMEONE ANSWER THAT ONE FOR ME. WHAT’S UP WITH THAT?!
This one reeks of backdoor politics and a polygamist society somewhere sometime that was affecting the economic interests of some Western power.
Thanks for the article, it’s a great read.
That issue of outlawing polygamy is plain hypocrisy, just like we have in the church (hope kenya fm doesn’t kill me for this..lol), whats the point in outlawing polygamy, then have men running around bearing children all over? Where does it say God hates polygamy?IMO, polygamy was discouraged because of the issues it brought forth, not because of the sin aspect.
Anyways, thats a debate for another day.
In this issue, all I can add is, first it takes a very generous man to pull this off. You have to have the ability to love all your wives totally and completely, and keep them in love with you at all times. Actually I find it ironical when people say that the polygamist is selfish. Do they realise the amount of effort the man would have to put to keep these women happy? A real polygamist has to be generous and gifted.
It also takes a very strong woman, because, ideally, you have to love your step children like your own, and at the very least, tolerate your co wives… All in all, it’s workable.
Sorry for the thou comments, just that this is one of my favorite topics.
@Kelly: Don’t let me stop you, don’t save debate for another day, keep it going………..
I have asked this question a few times on and offline: Show me where polygamy is condemned in the Bible……..I’ll wait…..
So we go through Jesus great grand folks of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David who all were practicing polygamists….actually check out the modern religion article above for a better explanation of this.
It would be a great deal of work if a man chose to be a polygamist with some integrity especially if the wives didn’t like each other.
I would absolutely love to hear the history of how polygamy became first of all unpopular in the West and secondly illegal.I am sure the story will be an amazing one.
@Mwangi, it seems to me that this article is geered towards saying polygamy is the best option for everyone so the man won’t cheat. I don’t think this is the angle you should use to try and convince people that polygamy is the way to go. I am not so sure that polygamy first came about as a result of a man cheating and everyone got together said,”Ok, let’s allow men to have more than one wife, this way we can cure infidelity.” I don’t know, call me crazy, but I just don’t think that is the reason it came about. It seems to me that allowing a man to marry more than one woman so he won’t cheat is an appeasement and an appeasement rarely turns out good. There would have to be more substance to the relationship(s) in order for something like this to work. I agree that it would take a man with great integrity to make something like this work. I also think the same man would be able to make a marriage work if he had one wife or ten. In closing, polygamy is not something I would entertain the idea of doing, but to each his own. You have sold short the idea of polygamy by justifying it with a defect (infidelity), I would like to learn other , much more sound reasons that polygamy is the way to go. 🙂
so, in summary, polygamy should be used to preemt cheating?
im confused as to what your argument here is. on one hand, you say that mens sexual urges cant be controlled and an outlet for that would be lots and lots of action to release all this pent up frustration. on the other you talk about polygamy being a long term thing with lots of responsibility. lust does not a relationship make. is the whole aim to give men variety in terms from who they can sleep with for the sake of this alleged marital integrity you speak of? i still say that getting married just for the sex is a piss poor reason to do so, and anyone who does that really needs to reevaluate why they are doing so.
as you said, sexism and abuse was rife (and still is) when it comes to polygamy. from where i stand, it’s like you are suggesting all that should be put aside and women told to put their wants and needs aside cos a guy cant wait till he gets home to have sex with his wife. the reason the status quo changed was because not all women wanted to be one of many. we cant turn back time to the “good old days” minus all the bad stuff, cos the bad stuff is still around and yet to be dealt with.
in my view, guys who want multiple wives can go right ahead and do so. there are many cases where a man marries teh first wife and (with her consent) considers himself married to the subsequent ones even without getting the government to cosign it. and im very happy for the governments in general to keep out of my sex life thank you very much. policing of what people do in the bedroom reeks of people (mostly women) being persecuted for what is mostly their business.
i will reitarate what i said earlier – a man who cannot keep his pants on long enough to get home (its not like when there are many wives he will have one with him at all times just in case he is in the mood) has no business getting married and/or entering a long term relationship. the main crux of your argument is mostly the male libido and his inability to control it. i think this would be a problem regardless of whether he was in a monogomous or polygomous relationship.
@Caustic: First of all, I think the point should be made that polygamy came and was practiced widely first and so polygamy wasn’t invented as a cure to any problems with monogamy as far as I can tell.
The reason I chose the infidelity angle is 2:
a) I am ignorant about polygamy and can only speak about it in terms and from a place that I understand, and I understand infidelity quite well.
b) Everyone else in reading does too.
And again I ask the question: Is a man wanting to and ultimately having more than one woman an anomaly or is it the way men were designed? You’re right I did sell it using the whole infidelity angle but if you look at the flip side could I simply be selling it from the this-is-how-men-are-angle too?
I am not suggesting it for appeasement but because to lie and be a liar goes against being a man of integrity and I think that a man should always strive if for nothing else absolute integrity especially to his family and community.
Hmm, I think meek meek has a point though, thanks to the great arguments from all y’all I have realized the limits to my understanding on this matter, though some folks have definitely taught me a thing or two, so I hope that there are folks who can add some more info about it to the discussion.
Oh my God,je rêve!
I will start by saying that there should be a clear line drawn between polygamy and bigamy. Cheating on ones partener should not even count here, if a man cheats, its wrong and should not shift blames to polygamy! I know that men can be polygamous by nature, but hey Mwangi, are you serious when you say that marrying for love is impossible? That love dies? We have parents who have been together for 20,30 and more years, and love is still in the air! Never did they or do they ever cheat on each other!
Oh I was supposed to keep this positive, but I cannot, if the only way to keep a man with me is to share him, I’d rather have none, and yes, I mean it. In this society, this question should just be out! NO NO NO TO POLYGAMY! Have you seen how HIV/ Aids swept some places in Africa? This whole thing is mostly about polygamy, and since they were official couples, no preservatives were used,results? All(or a large percentage of) persons concerned contacted the virus.
How would this guy feels if he comes home, find out that the wife has been sleeping with another man? Just smile and say -hi dear,how was your day? No! Never!So (men) put yourselves in the woman’s shoes too. Hey, btw… the women who were in polygamous marriages in one way or another were not always happy. Human beings are possesive by nature. Just like sharing…….. say a toothbrush,its disgusting,no? So is sharing a love partener (except for prostitutes)
Interesting discussion once more. My issue is the fact that we women like living in denial…
Show me an African man who hasn’t cheated on his wife more than once. How comes divorce rates aren’t rocket high like the West where there are higher incidences of infidelity?
Because most women choose to close one eye and live with it. It’s sad and pathetic, but thats the truth. We good African women aren’t wired to divorce, cheat on, or even leave our men.
Which leads to my thought train, which is the lesser evil here?
It’s interesting that I’m the only woman an this side, but I’d love to hear from a woman who’s married, and has been cheated on…
@Kelly:Oh no!Not again! You want to say all African men cheat?
My Dad too, I am dropping my family name today…………lol!
No lets get serious, I know that there are women who learn that their husbands cheat on them but do not even confront them, that is pure shit! They are guilty coz that there are conjugal responsibilities (among others) that they do not fulfill, this makes the man ‘a chest front’ as I at times call them, take advantage of her submissiveness,to use his inability to control himself! One thing is for sure, African men have a fucking ego,and a selfish and exegerated self pride,while on the other hand, the women are humble and submissive, by nature.
I think I also want to hear from a few married women who have been cheated on!
[…] I wanted to make this a post filled with nothing but smooth jams because I wanted us to discuss polygamy more and cause I was having one of those lazy days but I just HAD to give props real quick to […]
@ Carol, there is that one man who doesn’t cheat, but fact is, a very large percentage does… Infact there was an interesting call in session in a popular radio station about spouses who are sure their men have always been faithful faithful, only one woman was sure (she’d been married 6 months). My statistics are not accurate, and your dad could be extra ordinary, but I think it’s good to be realistic.
Of course I’m not going to sweetly tell my husband ‘it’s ok for you to cheat, and marry 100 wives’, but I find it less heartbreaking to prepare for anything then be suprised if it doesn’t happen.
If I get married, of course the husband will know that the day he cheats on me, I throw him out on his behind… but well…
@Spicebear:
As I was saying to Caustic, you folks have helped me realize that there is a great limit to my understanding on this matter, but I’ll soldier on with what I do know.
I think to a large extent a man’s “love”, let’s call it infatuation and lust are intertwined. I know I’m not alone in falling for a girl the first day I meet her though I know, and care very little, about her personality, hopes and dreams. The fact that she was good looking and/or nice was good enough for me. What I am proposing, though I definitely need to investigate this more before saying its conclusive, is that men’s constant pursuit of women and sex perhaps was put there for a higher purpose that our culture is chosing to ignore, supresss and redirect.
I stongly agree with you though that folks need to evaluate why they get married. Though I am not using this as one of my arguments: one can easily make the case that marrying so that you have someone who’ll love you for the rest of your life is way worse than marrying for sex. Children, continuity of the race and family come out of the pursuit of sex. The same thing can’t be said about going after someone to leech love off for the rest of your life.
The reason I brought up the sexism and abuse was to concede that indeed it wasn’t all roses and butterflies back in the day when Africans practiced polygamy. BUT surely its better for all the struggling single mother families out there that are the result of affairs women have had with married men.
Again, I ask you what I asked Caustic. Keep in mind, that polygamy has been practiced longer and over time by more cultures, so monogamy is the anomaly and not the other way around. Do you honestly think that if most men were legitimate polygamy they would continue to creep in the shadows everytime they were interested in a single woman? Why hide when you can practice what you are doing in the light?
@everyone: As I was reading through the Wikipedia page on polygamy, an interesting idea came up:
The player always gets more love and more sex than the serial monogamist who subjugates and bows before his wife’s feet. So, the man who can have a lot of women still gets a lot of society’s riches and status than the committed monogamist……just think of the “nice guy” vs “bad boy” debate for example.
@Carol: I’m not saying marrying for love is impossible. I’m just saying that its probably one of the silliest reasons to get married….so you can suck love out of somebody else. That love WILL eventually fade, nine times out of ten…if it was the only glue that was holding you together, then what? I am willing to bet that for those folks who still love each other 20,30 years down the road, the glue that is holding them together at the core isn’t just passion but rather shared goals or an underlying friendship or simply the fact that they made a commitment to each other, society and God.
I mean even marrying so you can raise succesful children together seems to make more sense than marrying based on some capricious, ever changing emotion.
As for HIV infection, that’s for men who practice infidelity. If you are speaking in terms of Kenya, I hardly if ever see or hear about polygamy and there its usually just straight up infidelity which causes AIDs contamination. Polygamy probably wouldn’t result in such a high STD rate because everyone knows whose sleeping with everyone.
As for the jealousy and the possesiveness…..again, isn’t that a bad thing?
@Kelly: It looks like its just you and me huh holding the fort huh! Leeban and the preacher showed their support briefly and then bounced.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the LUO (I am not sure on the spelling) tribe is one of the tribes that practices polygamy and if I am mistaken I read somewhere that 1 in 5 in that tribe has HIV?
@Caustic Blonde: I don’t know if that’s true, but the HIV rate in many parts of Africa that are monogamous is about the same, 1 in 5 and in some areas like Botswana and Swaziland, 1 in 3, so I think it would be challenging to establish a cause-effect relationship between polygamy and AIDS.
“loving” someone without knowing her hopes and dreams and personality is just infatuation. let us not confuse the two. how can you claim to love someone without even knowing them? without knowledge of their quirks and likes and dislikes? when you talk about loving someone, its not ati a shiny object that you see in the shops and immediately want. that is a person. love is after seeing a person, warts and all and still want to be with them. kind of like the way parents always love their children and all that.
since you seem to have a disdain for the whole concept of love maybe you need to explain what you think what it is. you seem to be thinking its the stuff that comes from romance novels and disney movies that is supposed to last forever. but in my view, having a companion and partner in life goes way beyond that and even though it may not be the hollywood definition of love, its still there. you have to love someone in someway to wake up next to them everyday and spend decages with them and have all sorts of commitments with them. maybe what you mean to say is that you think love is hogwash, and thats fine, you arent the only one. but the whole marrying for love is worse than marrying for sex? pretty laughable if you ask me. eventually, with time, sex drive dissipates. the whole ritual of marriage just to get laid? im sorry, it just doesnt wash.
and im still puzzled as to why you expect those women not willing to engage in polygamy to do it for their own good or else they will end up bitter and alone and oh my goodness, single parents. ever considered that maybe that is why some of them are single? because they would rather eke it out on their own than put up with a situation that reminds them that they are second or third best or just a vessel for a man’s magic stick?
its a tad misogynistic for you to suggest that surely having a woman with a man (it doesnt matter if the family isn’t happy or that one or both spouses are miserable) with all the abuse, sexism and disfunction is better than a woman who would rather be alone/bring up children alone. i said earlier, there is a reason that the status quo changed and with all that women are capable of you cant surely expect them to go back to the way things used to be for the sake of society. let us not forget, it wasnt all roses and rainbows back then. there were serious issues. attempting to whitewash over them serves no one but the man who wants to have indiscriminate sex when he wants it with no thoughts of the consequences.
and as i said before, i dont buy this whole men just cant handle their libido thing. show me a man without standards and ill show you a liar. it only becomes a story of “no control” when situations are leaning in his favour. i say again (and i believe caustic blonde said so too) a man who just wants to hump around will do so regardless of whether he has one or ten wives back home.
and kelly said “show me an african man who hasn’t cheated on his wife more than twice” whoa kelly, the entire continent is struglling under that blanket of assumption you threw over them. as to why divorce isnt more common in africa i will try to answer that as best as i can (and anyone with stats can join in and corrct me if i am wrong, im working from memory here). divorce rates went up in the states at least from the late sixties and seventies because no fault divorces were easy and accesible, the workplace was opening up to them and the stigma of being divorced was lessening. the moment other options were available, some chose to simply walk away. on the other hand, it is extremely hard for a woman to get a divorce in kenya. or any divorce for that matter i dont know about other countries but we are stuck with laws handed down by our colonial masters that have barely changed since independence and a largely old male legislature not willing to change it or too busy figuring out new ways to enrich themselves. so no, statistically, rate of divorce is lower, but others just separate instead of going through the enormous cost and legal hassle involved.
and mwangi, you say that jealousy and possesiveness are a bad thing. it only seems to be a bad thing when applied to women, because in your hypothesis, men can be cagey with their wives and constantly coddled. but would he be so willing if a woman decided to go out and get some cos she isnt being satisfied? cos in the kind of world you are talking about, i highly doubt it.
First of all, you and I agree entirely, that what I described wasn’t love. It was infatuation and I believe that this is what most folks think of when they are talking about love. I also agree that love isn’t that bubbly emotion so much as it is a decision to stay true to someone after seeing their warts and all. Now in discussing infatuation, a woman usually needs to know a little bit about the man before she becomes infatuated with him but yes, a dude can just see a woman and become instantly infatuated as far as I can tell….we are visual like that.
What hurts me is when folks enter into a union with the “make me feel good mentality”.
In my view, love mainly counts when the going is bad. When someone has hurt you, betrayed you, stolen from you or isn’t giving you what you need that’s when love shows itself. It honestly scares me, the possibility of marrying a woman and 20 years down the road she leaves me because “the spark isn’t there!” When I watch sitcoms and TV shows and see the reasons that people who “were in love” split up I always think to myself, that isn’t love, that is a business arrangement where I’ll make you feel happy only on the condition that you do the same to me. To love is to give without expecting anything in return. It’s not glamarous, it’s not pretty, you’ll get hurt a lot, but that’s the only way I was taught to understand love. And as I said, can you imagine how many families in Africa would have fallen apart if we took every betrayal and incidence of abuse as a “deal breaker”. I think commitment to other people’s welfare above your own is something greatly missing from this Westernized notion of love.
I still stand by my statement that its better to marry for sex or raise kids together than for love, though that’s more of an empty rhetorical statement on my part than anything I want to build an argument on.
In regards to the single parent situation, I am comparing what happens now where men have families with their mistress and their wives. At least the wife gets some economic benefits and the emotional benefits associated with being out in the open. What about the mistress?
I think something that hasn’t been discussed but that we all know is true, is that women will put up with a lot when they love a man. A lot of these mistresses love and are loyal to these married men even though they have to live with the burdens of not being legit. So what I’m saying is that under polygamy these women don’t have to hide and can come out in the open. Something else that hasn’t been discussed is that a lot of the time the wives know the husband’s mistresses too and turn a blind eye to them, knowing full well that when the husband dies this woman won’t get jack. Under this arrangement, she get’s taken care of.
As for single parent households, I don’t think we need to discuss how important it is for a father to be there. Sure women can raise the child on their own, but this child will simply grow up better if his daddy is there and he can be sure his daddy will always be there.
I’m not whitewashing the negatives of abuse and sexism from years past, but they pretty much continue today under monogamy, it’s only that some of the advantages of old school relationships aren’t there.
As I said, I don’t think that most men would sleep around if they could just as easily in the open have more than one wife…..but, I’m hypothesizing on that one and I think this one merits further investigation considering almost all of us have seen and experienced life predominantly from a monogamous, Westernized perspective for the most part.
In short, spicebear, I have reached the point where I am basically repeating my arguments because I don’t have enough case studies or experience to back them up. So, stay tuned over the course of this blog because I think this definitely deserves some future investigation. I need to get some more knowledge and experience under my belt for this one.
the whole concept of love is one that can be discussed ad infinitum. but in my point of view, staying together just for the sake of it helps no one. it just leads to alot of resentment and unnecesarry tension. people who leave a relationship if its not working out are being honest with themselves and their partners and that in the long run works out for everybody. there is nothing worse than coming home to someone who you feel no connection to whatsoever. you and i seem to agree that romanticised love doesnt last forever but part when the application to relationship occurs.
i still feel that what you are saying is that women should put up with a situation just for the sake of society or family or whatever. if she is fine with it then that is fine, but if she feels it is not feasible and she can leave then so be it. to say that polygamy is the only option out of the connundrum that is modern marriage is to take away options and leave the man way ahead, because he gets all the choices and all women get to put up with it.
anyway, i will be looking forward to reading whatever else you write on the issue.
@spicebear: Yup, this one will come up in future when I at least have a few more case studies and real life stories, so far I only have heard a couple, so I look forward to hearing more.
As for what you said about love, one thing that I vowed from a very young age is that even if I want to kill my family and wife because they irritate, I will stay true to them. I am not saying this to be a martyr but I think that having a home, a place where someone can feel safe and stable and secure is way more important than love, lust or even a feeling of connection and because I have seen and admired folks who did that.
I also don’t think that we should ever mentally allow for ourselves to get to a point where it’s either or….either the marriage makes me happy now or I’ll make you feel unhappy (for a short while) and erode your trust in relationships and the institution of marriage.
I have had this article in my drafts for a while now where I basically talk about how we really don’t have any good reason to get married any more. There’s really nothing marriage offers the modern day Westerner that a de facto relationship doesn’t as far as I can tell, especially when lack of connection and love is enough to gets to stepping.
Very apropos the discussion: http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200710/20071026/slide_20071026_284_101.jhtml
I think “different strokes for different folks”. If people can respect each other in a polygamous marriage, and fulfill each others needs…then go for it!
The arguments for should probably be more wholesome than “fear of being left after twenty years” or “mens inability to keep it in their pants” (by the way, womens libido could be just as high as mens…but society has always been geared towards denying and repressing this)…
Polygamous marriages should be decriminalized, but no one should be forced to be in one.
@gal africana: Thanks for sharing the link, I’m browsing through it now. I had to start the argument from somewhere and I thought that was a pretty good place to start it from – infidelity and libido- cause everyone has an opinion on those two.
As for women’s high sex drive, though I have little doubt that women can be as “wide seed distributing” as men come, from what I have seen and experienced, I find it hard to believe that this is natural as much as it is a product of culture. Y’all just invest and see and bring out too much emotion out of sex for me to believe that a woman can callously sleep around in the same way a testosterone filled male can.
Now to check out Oprah
@gal: I just finished going through the Oprah polygamy show slides and video. The feeling I got from watching it is the same feeling I got when I watched the movie, The Great Happiness Space: Tale of an Osaka Love Thief http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493420/.
People are coming in to look at polygamy as it relates to their prejudices and preconceptions. They are not letting the people just be and trying to understand them.
As a result, I felt that a lot of it was pandering to sensibilities of the majority as opposed to trying to make the majority understand their lives.
For some reason, I feel in a show like ‘Big Love’, polygamists are allowed to be….just be, much more.
Thx again for the link.
@Mwangi,
I was in a hurry with my last comment and left out that I read 1 in 16 Kenyans have HIV and that 1 in 5 Luo have HIV. If I used your logic then people who practice polygamy would have lower cases of STDs in general. Your theory does not hold water and it all goes back to your thinking that polygamy somehow cures infidelity. You haven’t really offered any sound reason that polygamy is the way to go.
@Caustic: I think you are misunderstanding, I am not prescribing polygamy as a “cure to infidelity”. Under my mental exercise, which as I said, definitely needs more investigation, I am suggesting that infidelity being so rampant is as a result of trying to work against the natural rhythms of a man and that polygamy is a practice and system that goes with the grain of male rhythms better.
What I am proposing its a cure for is single parent households of mistresses that don’t get all the benefits of the original wife.
As for the stats on Luos, please any Luos in the house contribute. I didn’t think that Luos practiced polygamy. I knew that they had wife sharing, where the widow’s brother inherits someone’s wife upon death and they also have a common practice of women exchanging sex for fish but other than that I don’t know that much of what goes on lakeside. But I highly doubt polygamy is being practiced there openly….but please anyone who knows leave a comment.
@ Caustic:That thing of 1 out of 16 kenyans or 1 out of 5 luos just connot be true! what’s the source(before we go to court)?
Both polygamy and wife inheritance, yes,those days,but now, I think it just fades.
‘Finally, as I have said previously, polygamy appears to be the best way for a man to somewhat stay true to his nature’…………These are your words Mwangi, just trying to justify infidelity and covering it up with polygamy!
Being possesive is not evel,though its not good, but its human nature. This discussion needs a hole seminar, we could invite ourselver for a real forum!
I meant a whole seminar!
@Carol: It seems that the way I tried to explain it is getting lost in translation………….I am enjoying hearing what folks have to say via comments, don’t think we need to move to a forum. I don’t think being possessive is an automatic part of human nature. Lest we forget once upon a time, we didn’t perceive ourselves as “owning” anything, we were just stewards of the Lord’s creation. Perhaps this whole jealousy thing is just as a result of living in capitalistic and societies where there was land and property ownership. Maybe, I don’t know. But we can’t really be sure that jealousy and possessiveness is automatic until we can find a way to test that.
@Caustic: Please post the link to the stats so we can have a look..
I read those statistics a few months back and did a search just now, I did not come across the original statistics, but I did run across this page:
http://www.globalhealthreporting.org/countries/kenya.asp?collID=11&id=1414&malID=1416&tbID=1415&hivIC=1411&malIC=1413&tbIC=1412&map=1418&con=Kenya&p=1
Someone please tell me, can these numbers be correct:
HIV/AIDS in Kenya
33,829,592: population (July 2005 est.)
1,300,000: Estimated number of people living with HIV/AIDS by the end of 2005
6.1%:Estimated percentage of adults (ages 15-49) living with HIV/AIDS by the end of 2005
62%: Estimated percentage of HIV cases that occured among women (ages 15-49) by the end of 2005
150,000: Estimated number of children (ages 0-15) living with HIV/AIDS by the end of 2005
140,000: Estimated number of deaths due to AIDS during 2005
1,100,000: Estimated number of children who have lost their mother or father or both parents to AIDS and who were alive and under the age of 17 end of 2005
The most alarming is: 62%: Estimated percentage of HIV cases that occured among women (ages 15-49) by the end of 2005 Am I reading this correctly? 62% of women ages 15-49 have HIV? Please tell me I am misreading this. I hope this is a typo.
@Caustic: I remember reading somewhere that AIDS has had the most damaging effect on women affecting them at a much higher rate than it is the men. I don’t think it can be that high, but its probably pretty high as far as I can tell.